Linus Torvalds said: "KDE is the cream of the crop"

[Patrick Trettenbrein]

He didn't say that literally but:

In an interview Linus Torvalds said, that he favours KDE over GNOME. GNOME
developers shouldn't demote users with hiding or simply not implementing
config options in his opinion. As we know that Linus loves Konqueror too
we've got a person with a weighty voice on our side! :)

http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/67320 (German)

If you want I can translate it and post it on the dot/here?

Patrick

[Patrick Trettenbrein]

Post by Patrick Trettenbrein
In an interview Linus Torvalds said, that he favours KDE over GNOME. GNOME
developers shouldn't demote users with hiding or simply not implementing
config options in his opinion. As we know that Linus loves Konqueror too
we've got a person with a weighty voice on our side! :)
http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/67320 (German)
If you want I can translate it and post it on the dot/here?
Patrick

Appendix:

Slashdot also got it:
http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/12/13/1340215

Patrick

[Olaf Jan Schmidt]

Post by Patrick Trettenbrein
If you want I can translate it and post it on the dot/here?

Thanks for your offer, but the Linus did not say much about KDE in those
mailing lists posts. He mainly spoke about Gnome, and that is off-topic for
the dot. Also, it would be harmful for KDE to engage in these kinds of
flamewars. Good relations between KDE and Gnome developers are important if
we want to fix some of the existing problems on the Linux desktop.

Olaf

[Martin Konold]

Am Dienstag, 13. Dezember 2005 20:03 schrieb Olaf Jan Schmidt:

Hi,

Post by Olaf Jan Schmidt
flamewars. Good relations between KDE and Gnome developers are important if
we want to fix some of the existing problems on the Linux desktop.

While I am very happy that we have another happy KDE user it is mandatory for
us to have very good relationship with GNOME and other oss projects. Please
don't get engaged in any of these flamefests on kde.org sites.

We are fully busy with making the Linux desktop as good was we can.

Regards,
-- martin

[k***@mslinux.com]

Post by Olaf Jan Schmidt

Post by Patrick Trettenbrein
If you want I can translate it and post it on the dot/here?

Thanks for your offer, but the Linus did not say much about KDE in those
mailing lists posts. He mainly spoke about Gnome, and that is off-topic for
the dot. Also, it would be harmful for KDE to engage in these kinds of
flamewars. Good relations between KDE and Gnome developers are important if
we want to fix some of the existing problems on the Linux desktop.

I disagree with your stance. Having competition is a good thing. If we make
this known that Linus loves KDE over Gnome, then the Gnome folks got some
shaping up to do to convince Linus otherwise so he'll switch in the
future. And if Linus does switch in the future, KDE got some shaping up
to do.

Flamewar when done correctly is good. It encourages both side to prove each
other that they are better. This will always bring the best in the desktop
features to market quicker.

So I think Patrick is correct by encouraging this translation to let the world
Linus uses KDE. This will bring more people in using KDE.

Cheers!


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[Torsten Rahn]

Post by k***@mslinux.com
I disagree with your stance. Having competition is a good thing. If we
make this known that Linus loves KDE over Gnome, then the Gnome folks got
some shaping up to do to convince Linus otherwise so he'll switch in the
future. And if Linus does switch in the future, KDE got some shaping up to
do.

I don't think that Linus would feel happy if there were desktop evangelist
nazis around him that annoy him by trying to make him change desktops every
week ;-)

Mentioning in the future that Linus is using KDE is a good thing. But
comparisons don't help here at all - rather the opposite: "There's no
contender out there that would be worth to be mentioned" / "Never ever
mention the competition" is the marketing rule that needs to be respected in
this case.

Post by k***@mslinux.com
Flamewar when done correctly is good. It encourages both side to prove
each other that they are better. This will always bring the best in the
desktop features to market quicker.

You try to encourage in turf fighting which would neither look professional
nor would it have to do anything with promotion.

Post by k***@mslinux.com
So I think Patrick is correct by encouraging this translation to let the
world Linus uses KDE. This will bring more people in using KDE.

Definetely not. There's nothing to gain here. Time to move on.
--
Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Kind regards,

        Torsten Rahn

--
Dipl.-Phys. Torsten Rahn, credativ GmbH
Karl-Heinz-Beckurts-Str. 13, 52428 Jülich, Germany
Tel.:  [phone]
Fax:   [phone]
Mobil: +49  (160) 7452624
Email: ***@credativ.de

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[k***@mslinux.com]

Post by Torsten Rahn
Mentioning in the future that Linus is using KDE is a good thing. But
comparisons don't help here at all - rather the opposite: "There's no
contender out there that would be worth to be mentioned" / "Never ever
mention the competition" is the marketing rule that needs to be respected in
this case.

Where did you learn about "never ever mention the competition" in
marketing? There is this supersymmetry in marketing. Bad publicity is
also a good thing
because it brings in attention from those who have no idea what KDE is. When
the world only knows Windows and you talk shiet about Windows and claim KDE is
better and this and that. What do you think people who have no idea of KDE
would do? Do your homework in marketing.

Post by Torsten Rahn

Post by k***@mslinux.com
Flamewar when done correctly is good. It encourages both side to prove
each other that they are better. This will always bring the best in the
desktop features to market quicker.

You try to encourage in turf fighting which would neither look professional
nor would it have to do anything with promotion.

I used to talk to professional in many areas when in fact after talking
to them
for about 10 minutes, I realized I'm so much smarter than them. So in
the end,
I tell them, your service is no longer needed.

It's a good thing Novell ditch SUSE and fire a bunch of KDE developers
along the
way and go with Gnome. :) When the KDE developers are in the shiet hole and
have no financial support, they'll just die off like any other open source
project. :) But Linspire and Corel wouldn't want that to happen because their
livelihood depend on it.

When it comes down to it, if you want to push the "professional" button, I can
assure, you can get someone who is "professional" to be unprofessional.

Post by Torsten Rahn

Post by k***@mslinux.com
So I think Patrick is correct by encouraging this translation to let the
world Linus uses KDE. This will bring more people in using KDE.

Definetely not. There's nothing to gain here. Time to move on.

There is. If you let CNN, news.com, linuxtoday, business wire, yahoo news,
google news, bloggers, etc. pick this up, you will have an incredible masses
looking at KDE. The name Linus Torvald alone in the media can get the
attention of at least 10 million people. Linus Torvald is a superstar, use
that to KDE's advantage!

There are many people on this mailing list that lacks marketing
education which
I find very alarming.

Cheers!


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[Patrick Trettenbrein]

On one hand we shouldn't flame the GNOME guys, but on the other hand we should
take this as a change of making the name KDE well known to a lot of people!
If CNN would have the story... elusive! :) We'd get more attention from the
mob than ever before...

Anyway - just my 2 cents...

Patrick

[Kurt Pfeifle]

Post by Patrick Trettenbrein
If CNN would have the story... elusive! :)

OK, if you can find a means to bring KDE into the CNN news in a
positive way, on its own merits, go for it!

Post by Patrick Trettenbrein
We'd get more attention from the
mob than ever before...

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[Tom Chance]

Post by k***@mslinux.com

Post by Torsten Rahn

Post by k***@mslinux.com
So I think Patrick is correct by encouraging this translation to let the
world Linus uses KDE. This will bring more people in using KDE.

Definetely not. There's nothing to gain here. Time to move on.

There is. If you let CNN, news.com, linuxtoday, business wire, yahoo news,
google news, bloggers, etc. pick this up, you will have an incredible
masses looking at KDE. The name Linus Torvald alone in the media can get
the attention of at least 10 million people. Linus Torvald is a superstar,
use that to KDE's advantage!

Woah, why would CNN give a damn? =) Linus Torvalds is *NOT* a superstar, he's
just a well-known geek amongst the geek community.

Anyway, the only way this can be interesting to a journalist is for it to be a
bitch fight between KDE and GNOME. Linus uses KDE... so what? I bet he uses
lots of free software, who cares? The story is "Linux lays into GNOME",
that's what got covered and KDE got some incidental coverage as a result.
Look at the total lack of interest in Linus' new tool 'Git' after the geek
press storm surrounding BitKeeper and it's obvious why one got coverage and
another didn't.

If we try to bring this up as a story we'll either just fail, or we'll further
stoke the "KDE vs GNOME" fire. For a start, no big news sites will care about
that fire. But more importantly, and what no marketing education can teach
you, that story is bad bad bad for KDE. Why? Because KDE's immediate future
depends upon GNOME also doing really well. KDE's future depends upon people
perceiving "the Linux desktop" as a killer item.

Only in the past few years has this bigger story started to get press
attention outside of Linux fanboy magazines and web sites. If we start
whipping up "KDE vs GNOME" stories for the mainstream press we'll only weaken
the perception of the Linux desktop, and put a meaningless meme into people's
heads (KDE? What the hell is KDE and why should I care if some developer
likes it more than GNOME?)

There are *lots* of important tasks that need doing, and that would in the
long-term have a much bigger positive impact, than pushing this story:
http://www.spreadkde.org/dev/tasks

Post by k***@mslinux.com
There are many people on this mailing list that lacks marketing
education which
I find very alarming.

Maybe you could share some of your education with us? I'm not kidding. Your
tone is very aggressive and dismissive - something I'm also guilty of at
times. Being a hacker is all about demonstrating and sharing your skills.

Regards,
Tom

[Wade Olson]

Post by Tom Chance
Woah, why would CNN give a damn? =) Linus Torvalds is *NOT* a superstar, he's
just a well-known geek amongst the geek community.

Bummer. And I just sent Torvalds a script for the KDE commercial I'm
making. Oh well, what's done is done! I just wish I hadn't spent the
whole budget on it.

Thanks for keeping the thread positive Tom. File this all under "It's
easier to tear down than to build up."

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[k***@mslinux.com]

Post by Tom Chance

Post by k***@mslinux.com

Post by Torsten Rahn

Post by k***@mslinux.com
So I think Patrick is correct by encouraging this translation to let the
world Linus uses KDE. This will bring more people in using KDE.

Definetely not. There's nothing to gain here. Time to move on.

There is. If you let CNN, news.com, linuxtoday, business wire, yahoo news,
google news, bloggers, etc. pick this up, you will have an incredible
masses looking at KDE. The name Linus Torvald alone in the media can get
the attention of at least 10 million people. Linus Torvald is a superstar,
use that to KDE's advantage!

Woah, why would CNN give a damn? =) Linus Torvalds is *NOT* a superstar, he's
just a well-known geek amongst the geek community.

If Linus is a not a superstar why people make a big fuss of his
comment? Slashdot commands about 1-10 million users. That goes to show
his popularity
reach. CNN did report on Linus the creator Linux being the Windows
killer. So, I think Linus does has a lot of weight in the mainstream
press.

Post by Tom Chance
Anyway, the only way this can be interesting to a journalist is for it to be a
bitch fight between KDE and GNOME. Linus uses KDE... so what? I bet he uses
lots of free software, who cares? The story is "Linux lays into GNOME",
that's what got covered and KDE got some incidental coverage as a result.
Look at the total lack of interest in Linus' new tool 'Git' after the geek
press storm surrounding BitKeeper and it's obvious why one got coverage and
another didn't.

KDE has momentum. Linux has momentum. Using the momentum to push this
forward
by leveraging Linus popularity to bring KDE more to the mass. Think of
momentum like inertia, once it goes, it keeps on going. You need to work with
this inertia to make this force to grow exponentially faster.

Git and BitKeeper are interest of developers which have an audience less than
10,000 people (mainly developers) whereas KDE as a potential Windows displacer
has an interest of well over 1,000,000,000 people. Which do you think make
better sense in the public media? Revision control or nice looking desktop?

Post by Tom Chance
If we try to bring this up as a story we'll either just fail, or we'll further
stoke the "KDE vs GNOME" fire. For a start, no big news sites will care about
that fire. But more importantly, and what no marketing education can teach
you, that story is bad bad bad for KDE. Why? Because KDE's immediate future
depends upon GNOME also doing really well. KDE's future depends upon people
perceiving "the Linux desktop" as a killer item.

You want to intensify competition by comparing where KDE is better than
Gnome. Throwing emotional hot waters may help the ego to make things
better, but
ultimately the users who use KDE or Gnome will know which is better. That's
the ultimate goal in competition, you fight each other so you can better each
other to make the best damn desktop for the user! You don't compete to kill
each other off. That's stupid, you compete to make the best damn desktop so
you can kill your competitor (Gnome, Windows, BeOS, etc.). See the
difference?

Post by Tom Chance
There are *lots* of important tasks that need doing, and that would in the
http://www.spreadkde.org/dev/tasks

I disagree. KDE has exhausted their current developer's audience. And
what do
you do when you reach that pinnacle, you find more people, and how do you find
more people. You spread KDE to a bigger audience.

Post by Tom Chance

Post by k***@mslinux.com
There are many people on this mailing list that lacks marketing
education which
I find very alarming.

Maybe you could share some of your education with us? I'm not kidding. Your
tone is very aggressive and dismissive - something I'm also guilty of at
times. Being a hacker is all about demonstrating and sharing your skills.

I read Internet articles on superstring theory, and am writing a book
on theory
of nothing.

In terms of formal education, I came from a very liberal number 1 public
university in the world. If you do your research, you can figure that out
yourself.

Cheers!



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[Kevin Krammer]

Post by k***@mslinux.com

Post by Tom Chance
There are *lots* of important tasks that need doing, and that would in
the long-term have a much bigger positive impact, than pushing this
story: http://www.spreadkde.org/dev/tasks

I disagree. KDE has exhausted their current developer's audience. And
what do
you do when you reach that pinnacle, you find more people, and how do you
find more people. You spread KDE to a bigger audience.

There is a big difference between KDE as a product and something like Windows:
KDE is also a project.

Which means our reputation is very important. If we resort to mud throwing our
reputation among contributors, collaborating projects and industry peers
sinks, which results in less new contributors, less invitations for
collaboration and less sponsoring of KDE related activities.

Increasing our audience by marketing our strengths might be slower than by
marketing our competitors flaws, but what good is a 90% market share good for
if everbody dislikes you?

IMHO as a developer, one of the people with an alarming lack of marketing
education.

Cheers,
Kevin

[Kurt Pfeifle]

Post by k***@mslinux.com
If Linus is a not a superstar why people make a big fuss of his
comment?

It's not "people" who make a big fuss of his comments. It's other
geeks who do. And a few journalist who write for news sites that
seek geek readership.

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[Mihnea Capraru]

Post by k***@mslinux.com

Post by Tom Chance

Post by k***@mslinux.com

Post by Torsten Rahn

Post by k***@mslinux.com
So I think Patrick is correct by encouraging this translation to let
the world Linus uses KDE. This will bring more people in using KDE.

Definetely not. There's nothing to gain here. Time to move on.

There is. If you let CNN, news.com, linuxtoday, business wire, yahoo
news, google news, bloggers, etc. pick this up, you will have an
incredible masses looking at KDE. The name Linus Torvald alone in the
media can get the attention of at least 10 million people. Linus
Torvald is a superstar, use that to KDE's advantage!

Woah, why would CNN give a damn? =) Linus Torvalds is *NOT* a superstar,
he's just a well-known geek amongst the geek community.

If Linus is a not a superstar why people make a big fuss of his
comment? Slashdot commands about 1-10 million users. That goes to show
his popularity
reach. CNN did report on Linus the creator Linux being the Windows
killer. So, I think Linus does has a lot of weight in the mainstream
press.

CNN will not report about Linus being the Gnome killer :)

Besides, we are not interested in killing Gnome. Gnome itself has been started
to kill off KDE, that's more or less history and, at any rate, it has nothing
to do with the spirit of KDE.

Post by k***@mslinux.com

Post by Tom Chance
Anyway, the only way this can be interesting to a journalist is for it to be a
bitch fight between KDE and GNOME. Linus uses KDE... so what? I bet he
uses lots of free software, who cares? The story is "Linux lays into
GNOME", that's what got covered and KDE got some incidental coverage as a
result. Look at the total lack of interest in Linus' new tool 'Git' after
the geek press storm surrounding BitKeeper and it's obvious why one got
coverage and another didn't.

KDE has momentum. Linux has momentum. Using the momentum to push this
forward
by leveraging Linus popularity to bring KDE more to the mass. Think of
momentum like inertia, once it goes, it keeps on going.

I can see :)

Ok, momentum and inertia are indeed related terms, they both belong to
mechanics, but there's no point in telling people to consider them
synonymous.

Post by k***@mslinux.com
You need to work
with this inertia to make this force to grow exponentially faster.

How does inertia make a force grow?

Btw, do you mean exponentially faster, or just exponentially fast?

Post by k***@mslinux.com
Git and BitKeeper are interest of developers which have an audience less
than 10,000 people (mainly developers) whereas KDE as a potential Windows
displacer has an interest of well over 1,000,000,000 people. Which do you
think make better sense in the public media? Revision control or nice
looking desktop?

Post by Tom Chance
If we try to bring this up as a story we'll either just fail, or we'll further
stoke the "KDE vs GNOME" fire. For a start, no big news sites will care
about that fire. But more importantly, and what no marketing education
can teach you, that story is bad bad bad for KDE. Why? Because KDE's
immediate future depends upon GNOME also doing really well. KDE's future
depends upon people perceiving "the Linux desktop" as a killer item.

You want to intensify competition by comparing where KDE is better than
Gnome. Throwing emotional hot waters may help the ego to make things
better, but
ultimately the users who use KDE or Gnome will know which is better.
That's the ultimate goal in competition, you fight each other so you can
better each other to make the best damn desktop for the user!

You don't need a fight in order to make the best desktop.

Post by k***@mslinux.com
You don't
compete to kill each other off. That's stupid, you compete to make the
best damn desktop so you can kill your competitor (Gnome, Windows, BeOS,
etc.). See the difference?

No, you don't make KDE the best just so you can kill Gnome or whomever else.
There was no Gnome around when KDE was started. The people who make KDE want
to make the best desktop, and that's about all. Lots of users can help with
making KDE the best, but starting a war with Gnome cannot.

Post by k***@mslinux.com

Post by Tom Chance
There are *lots* of important tasks that need doing, and that would in
the long-term have a much bigger positive impact, than pushing this
story: http://www.spreadkde.org/dev/tasks

I disagree. KDE has exhausted their current developer's audience. And
what do
you do when you reach that pinnacle, you find more people, and how do you
find more people. You spread KDE to a bigger audience.

And how do you spread KDE to a bigger audience? The rest of the answers we
already knew, thank you.

Post by k***@mslinux.com

Post by Tom Chance

Post by k***@mslinux.com
There are many people on this mailing list that lacks marketing
education which
I find very alarming.

Thank you for spotting the danger.

Post by k***@mslinux.com

Post by Tom Chance
Maybe you could share some of your education with us? I'm not kidding.
Your tone is very aggressive and dismissive - something I'm also guilty
of at times. Being a hacker is all about demonstrating and sharing your
skills.

I read Internet articles on superstring theory, and am writing a book
on theory
of nothing.

Great! All we needed on the marketing team was the theory of nothing!

Post by k***@mslinux.com
In terms of formal education, I came from a

You came? And where do you come from now?

Post by k***@mslinux.com
very liberal number 1 public
university in the world. If you do your research, you can figure that out
yourself.

The number one university in the world is anglophone, and you didn't come from
there, trust me.


Ok, so here are my conclusions:

1. If someone can get Linus to say something good about KDE in a positive
context, do it.

2. If Linus doesn't like Gnome well I don't like it either, but don't make a
childish parade out of this.

3. Gnome is just about the best ally we can get, so don't piss them off. (Yes
I know, some of them piss us off but don't imitate everything you see)

4. Are you serious or are you just spamming the mailing list. You certainly
don't sound like serious.





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[k***@mslinux.com]

Post by Mihnea Capraru
4. Are you serious or are you just spamming the mailing list. You certainly
don't sound like serious.

Once I have enough money, I'll fork KDE, and Qt to teach you guys a lesson on
competition. I'll create a new name of the fork and make it even better than
what you guys can do right now. When the dust is settled, KDE, and Qt can
become a niche player, and continue to dwindle its userbase. That's fine by
me, as long as I can drive you guys insane through competition.

When I have something to show, I will send this mailing list an email
much like
how Linus announced his kernel to minix mailing list.

Do as I say or die competing against me. :)

Cheers!



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[Martin Konold]

Post by k***@mslinux.com
Do as I say or die competing against me.

FYI: We are eagerly looking forward to your competetion. Maybe we can learn
something along the way and grab some GPL'd code ;-)

Regards,
-- martin

[Sebastian Kügler]

Post by k***@mslinux.com

Post by Mihnea Capraru
4. Are you serious or are you just spamming the mailing list. You
certainly don't sound like serious.

Once I have enough money, I'll fork KDE, and Qt to teach you guys a lesson
on competition. I'll create a new name of the fork and make it even better
than what you guys can do right now. When the dust is settled, KDE, and Qt
can become a niche player, and continue to dwindle its userbase. That's
fine by me, as long as I can drive you guys insane through competition.
When I have something to show, I will send this mailing list an email
much like
how Linus announced his kernel to minix mailing list.
Do as I say or die competing against me. :)

Could you either just start working on one of the issues from Tom's list [0],
which are well thought out and have been identified as pressing, or simply
shut the fuck up and let us do our work instead of dealing with a random
moron who claims to be a universal expert?

[0] http://www.spreadkde.org/dev/tasks

kthx,

[Aaron J. Seigo]

Post by k***@mslinux.com
Once I have enough money, I'll fork KDE, and Qt to teach you guys a lesson
on competition.

thankfully ayn rand was not the last word on these things. in fact, it's a
pretty good example of local maxima detection.

if you have enough money, i can show you ways to get way more out of it with
the KDE code base than "teaching us guys a lesson on competition"

http://www.iftf.org/docs/SR-851A_New_Literacy_Cooperation.pdf

Post by k***@mslinux.com
Do as I say or die competing against me. :)

heh ... neither are palattable, and neither will happen. there are other
options you didn't list, however. =)

[Tom Chance]

Post by k***@mslinux.com

Post by Tom Chance
Woah, why would CNN give a damn? =) Linus Torvalds is *NOT* a superstar,
he's just a well-known geek amongst the geek community.

If Linus is a not a superstar why people make a big fuss of his
comment? Slashdot commands about 1-10 million users. That goes to show
his popularity
reach. CNN did report on Linus the creator Linux being the Windows
killer. So, I think Linus does has a lot of weight in the mainstream
press.

Slashdot isn't the mainstream, it's extremely geeky. And no Linus doesn't have
a lot of weight, he's not a Michael Jordan with a multi-million dollar
marketing campaign behind him. He has a little name recognition associated
with some obscure computer product. There's a big difference.

Post by k***@mslinux.com

Post by Tom Chance
Anyway, the only way this can be interesting to a journalist is for it to be a
bitch fight between KDE and GNOME. Linus uses KDE... so what? I bet he
uses lots of free software, who cares? The story is "Linux lays into
GNOME", that's what got covered and KDE got some incidental coverage as a
result. Look at the total lack of interest in Linus' new tool 'Git' after
the geek press storm surrounding BitKeeper and it's obvious why one got
coverage and another didn't.

KDE has momentum. Linux has momentum. Using the momentum to push this
forward
by leveraging Linus popularity to bring KDE more to the mass. Think of
momentum like inertia, once it goes, it keeps on going. You need to work
with this inertia to make this force to grow exponentially faster.

That's a massive over-simplification =)

Post by k***@mslinux.com
Git and BitKeeper are interest of developers which have an audience less
than 10,000 people (mainly developers) whereas KDE as a potential Windows
displacer has an interest of well over 1,000,000,000 people. Which do you
think make better sense in the public media? Revision control or nice
looking desktop?

You missed my point. The Git story was interesting to the media because it
represented a clash of values - between the "open source gets things done
quicker" view and the "free/open source is the right way to do it". It was a
complex story with lots of interesting angles for a certain segment of the
media.

Linus using one particular desktop environment is totally uninteresting to
non-geeky media. It will only become interesting to them when that desktop
environment, or more likely the Linux desktop, becomes interesting. We're a
long way from there...

Post by k***@mslinux.com

Post by Tom Chance
If we try to bring this up as a story we'll either just fail, or we'll further
stoke the "KDE vs GNOME" fire. For a start, no big news sites will care
about that fire. But more importantly, and what no marketing education
can teach you, that story is bad bad bad for KDE. Why? Because KDE's
immediate future depends upon GNOME also doing really well. KDE's future
depends upon people perceiving "the Linux desktop" as a killer item.

You want to intensify competition by comparing where KDE is better than
Gnome. Throwing emotional hot waters may help the ego to make things
better, but
ultimately the users who use KDE or Gnome will know which is better.
That's the ultimate goal in competition, you fight each other so you can
better each other to make the best damn desktop for the user! You don't
compete to kill each other off. That's stupid, you compete to make the
best damn desktop so you can kill your competitor (Gnome, Windows, BeOS,
etc.). See the difference?

Yes, but it's just not applicable to this context.

KDE and GNOME compete in some ways and cooperate in others. In what way do we
"fight with each other"? KDE and GNOME have a few slight differences, and
they're the subject of constant cordial discussions between contributors and
users. Nobody's saying that should stop. But it's important that things
remain cordial, and that we also focus on cooperation. A simplification
applicable to this context is that two weaker people can overcome a giant
better if they cooperate.

We do best when we both contribute towards a more important shared goal - the
Linux desktop. Competing in terms of making the better desktop environment is
good. Competing in terms of encouraging the press to cover bitch fights, and
by trying to kill each other, doesn't.

Post by k***@mslinux.com

Post by Tom Chance
There are *lots* of important tasks that need doing, and that would in
the long-term have a much bigger positive impact, than pushing this
story: http://www.spreadkde.org/dev/tasks

I disagree. KDE has exhausted their current developer's audience. And
what do
you do when you reach that pinnacle, you find more people, and how do you
find more people. You spread KDE to a bigger audience.

Did you even read that list? Your response makes me think you didn't. If you
can't be bothered to read it and consider why we're working on those tasks
then I can't be bothered to respond to your third gross simplification.

Post by k***@mslinux.com

Post by Tom Chance

Post by k***@mslinux.com
There are many people on this mailing list that lacks marketing
education which
I find very alarming.

Maybe you could share some of your education with us? I'm not kidding.
Your tone is very aggressive and dismissive - something I'm also guilty
of at times. Being a hacker is all about demonstrating and sharing your
skills.

I read Internet articles on superstring theory, and am writing a book
on theory of nothing.
In terms of formal education, I came from a very liberal number 1 public
university in the world. If you do your research, you can figure that out
yourself.

Excuse me? So what! I'm completing postgraduate study in philosophy (ethics
and political philosophy to be precise) at one of the top departments in the
world for my field. Through my work as an activist, journalist, editor and
KDE press worker I've gained a considerable experience of the media. I've
also studied the media quite extensively.

What does this tell you about my ability to contribute to KDE? Not a lot... as
Kurt said, in the free software world people respect you for what you *do*
not how much weight or Slashdot-esque analysis you can throw around.

I don't want this to turn into a big pointless argument. I'm suggesting that
you read through that page I linked to before, perhaps review some of the
work we've been doing in the past year, and then come back with a
well-written critique or suggestion rather than a semi-coherent rant.

Regards,
Tom

[Wade Olson]

I just came back home to 27 more unread emails on this topic. Much like
a time capsule, all of this stupidity will be held in the archives for
future generations to see how keystrokes were needlessly wasted.

The only reason to comb any of this is to extract the top insanity to
have a 'Top Ten Reasons You Just Gave Someone the Ammunition Not to Use
Open Source."

[Aaron J. Seigo]

Post by Tom Chance
depends upon people perceiving "the Linux desktop" as a killer item.

as a small tweak here, we may want to consider talking about "the open source
desktop" rather than "the Linux desktop".

many ISVs, open and closed, are ready to or already jumping at the concept of
"open source desktop software" but are very wary of "the Linux desktop"
because it is unproven and implies they don't care about windows anymore.
they are concerned that linux would become the next platform they get locked
into.

yes, this is silly and not reflective of reality, but it is the opinion of
many. this includes even those many already consider to be in our community,
such as firefox and open office.

also remember that we will be reaching out to windows and mac developers with
kde4, and so we ought to position for that.

the end goal is to bring all these resources (and eventually users that follow
those resources) to open source platforms, and we will almost certainly be
integrating tighter with linux in kde4 to provide a better experience for our
core desktop audience ... but for now perhaps we ought to position ourselves
as "open source desktop software"..

thoughts?

[Cornelius Schumacher]

Post by Aaron J. Seigo
as a small tweak here, we may want to consider talking about "the open
source desktop" rather than "the Linux desktop".

Or the "Free Desktop".

[Tom Chance]

Post by Cornelius Schumacher

Post by Aaron J. Seigo
as a small tweak here, we may want to consider talking about "the open
source desktop" rather than "the Linux desktop".

Or the "Free Desktop".

Here comes the can of worms! If I remember correctly, we argue about
this for a
short while and then revert to our own personal preferences whenever we write
something...

Anyway, I take your point Aaron so yes, I'll be evangelising the Free desktop
rather than the Linux desktop, unless of course I'm at some Linux event :) It
will be interesting to see what impact we have on Windows and MacOSX if KDE 4
lives up to the hype.

Regards,
Tom

[Wade Olson]

Post by Tom Chance

Post by Cornelius Schumacher

Post by Aaron J. Seigo
as a small tweak here, we may want to consider talking about "the open
source desktop" rather than "the Linux desktop".

Or the "Free Desktop".

Here comes the can of worms!

I agree. And this only gets tangles in with the discussion of what's
the 'desktop' for KDE, what are core 'apps' and what are peripheral
apps? And the answer just isn't as simple as "Well, what's in extra-gear?"

Not exactly an elephant standing in the room that no one wants to
mention (let's see how that phrase translates), but we probably have to
nail it down for the sake of marketing consistency in the upcoming months.

"Open source desktop" or "software" but it's going to be mass confusion
for the public. Who think "software I pay for on the shelf at Best
Buy", "the CDs that my friend gave me with Photoshop for free", and
"everything else."

Good times ahead.

Post by Tom Chance
If I remember correctly, we argue about
this for a
short while and then revert to our own personal preferences whenever we write
something...
Anyway, I take your point Aaron so yes, I'll be evangelising the Free desktop
rather than the Linux desktop, unless of course I'm at some Linux event :) It
will be interesting to see what impact we have on Windows and MacOSX if KDE 4
lives up to the hype.
Regards,
Tom

[Aaron J. Seigo]

Post by Wade Olson
I agree. And this only gets tangles in with the discussion of what's
the 'desktop' for KDE, what are core 'apps' and what are peripheral
apps? And the answer just isn't as simple as "Well, what's in extra-gear?"

well, y'all know where i stand on this, and if you don't here it is: i truly
believe we ought to market the desktop as one entity and give it a name that
the API also shares (e.g. Clarity or something that is actually marketable;
not a code name, but a marketable name). this would include the libs, the
workspace and the apps the workspace relies on (e.g. control panels, file
manager, etc).

the rest of the apps ought to be bundled under another banner that is used for
the KDE4 applications that we ship on a regular basis as a lump pack (today
that'd be some of what's in kdebase, and all of what's in everything above
that). apple has kind of done this with iLife. the name we use should be
similarly marketable.

then people can refer to any KDE4 app as a "KDE application" without it
getting confused as being our application.

we could even allow people to certify as a KDE4 app by passing the automated
HIG tests and what not.

[Wade Olson]

Post by Aaron J. Seigo

Post by Wade Olson
I agree. And this only gets tangles in with the discussion of what's
the 'desktop' for KDE, what are core 'apps' and what are peripheral
apps? And the answer just isn't as simple as "Well, what's in extra-gear?"

well, y'all know where i stand on this, and if you don't here it is: i truly
believe we ought to market the desktop as one entity and give it a name that
the API also shares (e.g. Clarity or something that is actually marketable;
not a code name, but a marketable name). this would include the libs, the
workspace and the apps the workspace relies on (e.g. control panels, file
manager, etc).

As long as we don't bundle in a browser and media player. :)

More on this topic in a bit.

Post by Aaron J. Seigo
the rest of the apps ought to be bundled under another banner that is used for
the KDE4 applications that we ship on a regular basis as a lump pack (today
that'd be some of what's in kdebase, and all of what's in everything above
that). apple has kind of done this with iLife. the name we use should be
similarly marketable.
then people can refer to any KDE4 app as a "KDE application" without it
getting confused as being our application.
we could even allow people to certify as a KDE4 app by passing the automated
HIG tests and what not.

You know that I'm a fan of this. When it comes to core/common/popular
apps, people should have a reassurance that an app is tested,
consistency, documentation, translations, compliance. This has nothing
to do with being a 'nazi' (the overused word du jour) or marketing fluff
by having certifications, it has to do with making sure our core
products have a certain level of polish and reassuring the user.

Post by Aaron J. Seigo
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[Tom Chance]

Post by Wade Olson

i truly believe we ought to market the desktop as one entity and
give it a name that the API also shares (e.g. Clarity or something
that is actually marketable; not a code name, but a marketable
name). this would include the libs, the workspace and the apps the
workspace relies on (e.g. control panels, file manager, etc).
the rest of the apps ought to be bundled under another banner that
is used for the KDE4 applications that we ship on a regular basis as
a lump pack (today that'd be some of what's in kdebase, and all of
what's in everything above that). apple has kind of done this with
iLife. the name we use should be similarly marketable.
then people can refer to any KDE4 app as a "KDE application" without
it getting confused as being our application.

As long as we don't bundle in a browser and media player. :)
More on this topic in a bit.

Ever the man of mystery, Wade :) One thing that struck me about Aaron's latest
attempt at an irrefutable argument is - why wouldn't those official apps just
be 'Clarity apps'? Why do we need two separate brands, a-la MacOSX and iLife?
I'm not sure that the Apple model fits the more complicated world of KDE...

My take on your proposal, Aaron, is that we ship the desktop environment as a
bundle - Clarity. We then officially ship apps that meet certain standards and
brand them as "Clarity apps". Other apps that happen to use the KDE APIs are
then just plain old "KDE apps" (though that all of a sudden makes next to no
sense ;).

So today we'd have something like this (though with better names for apps):

Clarity
- Clarity apps
--- Kmail
--- Konqueror
--- Konsole
--- Digikam
--- Amarok
- KDE apps
--- RSIBreak
--- Kile
--- KDissert

But then the thinking behind Amarok and Digikam going into the 'Clarity apps'
category is more than automated tests. It's to do with their overall quality,
the fact that they are the best apps of their kind, and the likelihood of them
being actively developed in the forseeable future.

Can you, urm, clarify your thinking behind the separate brands? Also
how you see
those brands fitting in with certification, which you almost seem to
have put in
as an afterthought but which, as Wade said, seems like it could be a *really*
big move for the KDE Project.

Regards,
Tom

[Aaron J. Seigo]

latest attempt at an irrefutable argument is - why wouldn't those official
apps just be 'Clarity apps'?

to avoid the same problem with "KDE apps" ... "Clarity" would be a brand for
the desktop and APIs, so i can see someone saying that their app is a "KDE
Clairty" app instead of a "KDE4 app" as we would de-emphasize the numbering
nomenclature.

My take on your proposal, Aaron, is that we ship the desktop environment as
a bundle - Clarity. We then officially ship apps that meet certain
standards and brand them as "Clarity apps". Other apps that happen to use
the KDE APIs are then just plain old "KDE apps" (though that all of a
sudden makes next to no sense ;).

yes, people would start calling them KDE Clarity apps i'd imagine (if we do
this right).

But then the thinking behind Amarok and Digikam going into the 'Clarity
apps' category is more than automated tests. It's to do with their overall
quality, the fact that they are the best apps of their kind, and the
likelihood of them being actively developed in the forseeable future.

yes.. and that we (the primary KDE project) consider them part of our umbrella
project and take on additional responsibility for them.

Also
how you see
those brands fitting in with certification, which you almost seem to
have put in
as an afterthought but which, as Wade said, seems like it could be a
*really* big move for the KDE Project.

first off we need tests by which software can certify, and a low-cost method
(time wise, primarily) for a given version of a piece of software. they would
need to recertify with each release, and of course since open source software
goes by the mantra "release often" this is part of the reason why it needs to
be low-cost (the other part is that we don't many resources =)

to achieve low-cost, it must be largely automated. i say largely because at
the end of the day there has to be someone WE trust who say "yes, it passed"
and click it through to the certification database.

to automate it we need things like the HIG autochecker and then a
certification harness that can be used to run these tests.

which is why i tagged it on as an afterthought; i'm not sure yet that we are
able to do this for 4.0.

[Birger Kollstrand]

Post by Tom Chance
Ever the man of mystery, Wade :) One thing that struck me about Aaron's
latest attempt at an irrefutable argument is - why wouldn't those official
apps just be 'Clarity apps'? Why do we need two separate brands, a-la
MacOSX and iLife? I'm not sure that the Apple model fits the more
complicated world of KDE...

Might not, but it is a good idea to get a second set of branding. KDE is very
fluffy to explain to non Linux users. Is it an OS? No? Is it an application ?
NO? is it everything then ? NO????

So what if there was three parts to the message?
- An operating system
- A desktop environment
- A set of applications
??

Post by Tom Chance
My take on your proposal, Aaron, is that we ship the desktop environment as
a bundle - Clarity. We then officially ship apps that meet certain
standards and brand them as "Clarity apps". Other apps that happen to use
the KDE APIs are then just plain old "KDE apps" (though that all of a
sudden makes next to no sense ;).

Klarity apps, the usage of the K has become a branding in it self :-)

Post by Tom Chance
Clarity
- Clarity apps
--- Kmail
--- Konqueror
--- Konsole
--- Digikam
--- Amarok
- KDE apps
--- RSIBreak
--- Kile
--- KDissert
But then the thinking behind Amarok and Digikam going into the 'Clarity
apps' category is more than automated tests. It's to do with their overall
quality, the fact that they are the best apps of their kind, and the
likelihood of them being actively developed in the forseeable future.

Would it be possible to have a "second" name to the Klarity app? Like kMail,
kAudio, kScanner, kPaint (PLease find a better generic naminc scheme!)?
That second name could be just a link to the real name, but it could meake the
KDE experience easier as the different disrtos could ship a easy to use
default menue setup?
If say Digicam is eclipsed by another application then that can be chosen in
the next releas as the Klarity app?

Post by Tom Chance
Can you, urm, clarify your thinking behind the separate brands? Also
how you see
those brands fitting in with certification, which you almost seem to
have put in
as an afterthought but which, as Wade said, seems like it could be a
*really* big move for the KDE Project.

Regards Birger
www.linær.no

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[Aaron J. Seigo]

scheme!)? That second name could be just a link to the real name, but it
could meake the KDE experience easier as the different disrtos could ship a
easy to use default menue setup?

this is really asking for a task based app find/launch system. we don't need
to mess with name, i don't think.

If say Digicam is eclipsed by another application then that can be chosen
in the next releas as the Klarity app?

hopefully if we're more careful with allowing apps in in the future, we won't
have to do this. the "no browser -> galeon -> epiphany -> firefox?" switching
in GNOME has been pretty hard on their user base and we ought to avoid that.
we've been very good with that in the past, but we've also saddled our users
with a lot of half-baked apps.

i blogged about this recently, actually =)

[Birger Kollstrand]

Post by Aaron J. Seigo

scheme!)? That second name could be just a link to the real name, but it
could meake the KDE experience easier as the different disrtos could ship
a easy to use default menue setup?

this is really asking for a task based app find/launch system. we don't
need to mess with name, i don't think.

So how can we achieve the task based approach and in the same round get a
branding out of it. It is not to deny that Apple hit the spot on their
application branding.

It would be good to separate the apps and the desktop as it gives us a finer
grained marketing.

Regards Birger

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[Aaron J. Seigo]

Post by Birger Kollstrand
So how can we achieve the task based approach and in the same round get a
branding out of it.

i think it's two related but separate issues. being able to refer to "the
email app" generically and have whatever "the email app" is brought up is a
technology issue. we have most of the pieces in kde3 to do this, actually. in
fact, i had code back in the 2.2 days that did this =)

for branding ... since you brought up apple =) they use "iLife" as a brand for
a set of their apps. most of these apps are i<Something>, but also have apps
like Garage Band. i'm really suggesting something similar, though not along
the exact same demarcation lines as apple.

so amaroK and digiKam might both be "Clarity apps" (or whatever).

from the app launcher/search interface one could simply see "Music Player" and
"Digital Photo Collection". we may want to design the launcher interface so
that it provides a nice little logo next to Clarity apps.

interestingly, (k)ubuntu does this in their software installer app for
packages that are provided by them (versus by upstream debian or a third
party repository). (k)ubuntu packages get a little (k)ubuntu log next to
them. i find this gives those packages a more "i can trust this" feel to them
and certainly helps make them stand out.

see the horrific mockup attached (fuglyness warning!) ... the application can
be listed generically, be specified beneath it and if it is a "Clarity app"
have the Clarity watermark added to it (i used the kde logo in this case)

[Sebastian Kügler]

Post by Wade Olson

Post by Aaron J. Seigo
we could even allow people to certify as a KDE4 app by passing the
automated HIG tests and what not.

You know that I'm a fan of this. When it comes to core/common/popular
apps, people should have a reassurance that an app is tested,
consistency, documentation, translations, compliance. This has nothing
to do with being a 'nazi' (the overused word du jour) or marketing fluff
by having certifications, it has to do with making sure our core
products have a certain level of polish and reassuring the user.

FWIW, I'm doing research on a quality standard for Open Source software, and
could - at the very least - offer advice as to how to implement such a
certificate and the criteria involved.

[Aaron J. Seigo]

Post by Sebastian Kügler
FWIW, I'm doing research on a quality standard for Open Source software,
and could - at the very least - offer advice as to how to implement such a
certificate and the criteria involved.

that would be very helpful indeed.

[Kurt Pfeifle]

Post by k***@mslinux.com

Post by Torsten Rahn
You try to encourage in turf fighting which would neither look professional
nor would it have to do anything with promotion.

I used to talk to professional in many areas when in fact after talking
to them
for about 10 minutes, I realized I'm so much smarter than them. So in
the end,
I tell them, your service is no longer needed.

Sorry, I did not understand this paragraph of yours...

Post by k***@mslinux.com
It's a good thing Novell ditch SUSE and fire a bunch of KDE developers
along the
way and go with Gnome. :) When the KDE developers are in the shiet hole and
have no financial support, they'll just die off like any other open source
project. :) But Linspire and Corel wouldn't want that to happen because their
livelihood depend on it.

...nor this one...

Post by k***@mslinux.com
When it comes down to it, if you want to push the "professional" button, I can
assure, you can get someone who is "professional" to be unprofessional.

...or this. You do not express clearly what you mean to say, and
sometimes I thought you are just trolling, despite of your smileys.

Post by k***@mslinux.com

Post by Torsten Rahn

Post by k***@mslinux.com
So I think Patrick is correct by encouraging this translation to let the
world Linus uses KDE. This will bring more people in using KDE.

Definetely not. There's nothing to gain here. Time to move on.

There is. If you let CNN, news.com, linuxtoday,

You are lagging behind. All these news sites have already picked up
the "Linux vs. Gnome" story. And I'm still waiting for it to benefit
KDE in any way... ...well, I don't, to be honest. Because it will not.

Post by k***@mslinux.com
business wire, yahoo news,
google news, bloggers, etc. pick this up, you will have an incredible masses
looking at KDE. The name Linus Torvald alone in the media can get the
attention of at least 10 million people. Linus Torvald is a superstar,

He may be a superstar for you (or even for me). But certainly not for
a CNN editor. For them, he's just one of the more prominent geeks. And
they do not care a lot about some geek infighting (unless there are
fistfights or guns+bullets involved, or some other details that makes
it somehow a story of sensationalism).

You should re-adjust your scales for a bit.

Post by k***@mslinux.com
use
that to KDE's advantage!

You should be thinking of other means to advance KDE's PR than to rely
on some "superstar"'s personal recommendation.

Post by k***@mslinux.com
There are many people on this mailing list that lacks marketing
education which
I find very alarming.

I found your ranting not very helpful. This is especially true for
someone not signing his mails with a realname.

I will only trust people doing KDE promo and PR work of whom I know
their real names, who have some proven track record in pro KDE work
(written articles, conducted interviews, created tutorials, manned
exhibition booths, or whatever). Everybody else, I'll basically
ignore, and I think most KDE promo works will do likewise.

Please start earning yourself a few initial KDE promo merits, if you
want to contribute to KDE's future success.

Post by k***@mslinux.com
Cheers!

Ciao,
Kurt

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[k***@mslinux.com]

Post by Kurt Pfeifle

Post by Torsten Rahn

Post by Torsten Rahn
You try to encourage in turf fighting which would neither look

professional

Post by Torsten Rahn
nor would it have to do anything with promotion.

I used to talk to professional in many areas when in fact after talking
to them
for about 10 minutes, I realized I'm so much smarter than them. So in
the end,
I tell them, your service is no longer needed.

Sorry, I did not understand this paragraph of yours...

What happen when you tell your consultants fck off, you are no better
than me? The consultants become less of a professional. Happens most
of the time in my
neck of the wood.

Post by Kurt Pfeifle

Post by Torsten Rahn
When it comes down to it, if you want to push the "professional" button, I can
assure, you can get someone who is "professional" to be unprofessional.

...or this. You do not express clearly what you mean to say, and
sometimes I thought you are just trolling, despite of your smileys.

That's fine. It's your problem.

Post by Kurt Pfeifle

Post by Torsten Rahn

Post by Torsten Rahn

Post by k***@mslinux.com
So I think Patrick is correct by encouraging this translation to let the
world Linus uses KDE. This will bring more people in using KDE.

Definetely not. There's nothing to gain here. Time to move on.

There is. If you let CNN, news.com, linuxtoday,

You are lagging behind. All these news sites have already picked up
the "Linux vs. Gnome" story. And I'm still waiting for it to benefit
KDE in any way... ...well, I don't, to be honest. Because it will not.

Oh really? Give me proof.

Post by Kurt Pfeifle

Post by Torsten Rahn
business wire, yahoo news,
google news, bloggers, etc. pick this up, you will have an incredible masses
looking at KDE. The name Linus Torvald alone in the media can get the
attention of at least 10 million people. Linus Torvald is a superstar,

He may be a superstar for you (or even for me). But certainly not for
a CNN editor. For them, he's just one of the more prominent geeks. And
they do not care a lot about some geek infighting (unless there are
fistfights or guns+bullets involved, or some other details that makes
it somehow a story of sensationalism).
You should re-adjust your scales for a bit.

Haha, I consider a person capturing the attention of 1M or more users is
considered a superstar.

Post by Kurt Pfeifle

Post by Torsten Rahn
use
that to KDE's advantage!

You should be thinking of other means to advance KDE's PR than to rely
on some "superstar"'s personal recommendation.

I believe ancedote convince a lot of people to use a product or service. For
example, Michael Jordan wearing Nike shoe. It helps Nike get people to buy
Nike shoes. I was wearing NJ2000 shoe then I switch to wearing Nike
shoe after
seeing Michael Jordan wearing it on TV.

I think you are misguided by your emotion that a superstar's personal
recommendation isn't as powerful. Don't negate me because you hate
what I said
about KDE developers who work for SUSE are in the shiet hole. It can impair
your judgement in your writing, and it shows!

Post by Kurt Pfeifle

Post by Torsten Rahn
There are many people on this mailing list that lacks marketing
education which
I find very alarming.

I found your ranting not very helpful. This is especially true for
someone not signing his mails with a realname.

Does it matter? If I make sense, and people understand what I'm
saying, and my
idea has momentum that's concrete and realized, then what I say without
my name
is more credible than your name with bad ideas.

Post by Kurt Pfeifle
I will only trust people doing KDE promo and PR work of whom I know
their real names, who have some proven track record in pro KDE work
(written articles, conducted interviews, created tutorials, manned
exhibition booths, or whatever). Everybody else, I'll basically
ignore, and I think most KDE promo works will do likewise.

Go ahead. Since KDE is open source, any kid can come in and fork the
shiet out
of it and compete against you. Since Novell is no longer paying for SUSE
development, I'm suspecting many things in KDE development will be
slowed. Novell owner of SUSE has a very large percentage paid KDE
staffs, and when that
source is gone, you're left with smaller players to finance your
development. The only companies with a big interest now in KDE are
Trolltech, Linspire,
Corel, and Mindriva (a tenth). When Microsoft figures out the right
formula to
kill Trolltech, i.e. give out free Visual Studio to price dump on Trolltech,
Trolltech will no longer have a source of income to sustain itself and
die. One more financial supporter to KDE gone. The more financial
supporters to KDE
die, the less work KDE will get done and KDE will seesaw back to where E, OS/2
or BeOS is now.

You have an opportunity now with Linus saying he uses KDE, and you should use
that to make the best out of the situation. Missing this opportunity
will have
an impair effect in making KDE more known. When you miss too many
opportunities, and all the financial players to KDE die off, KDE will
shrink to
zero. :)

Post by Kurt Pfeifle
Please start earning yourself a few initial KDE promo merits, if you
want to contribute to KDE's future success.

I'm not in the market for credibility, I'm in it for the money. The moment I
see KDE have some marketing momentum, I latch on it like a bulldog. Don't ask
what my interest in KDE is because I'm not telling you, I make money
for having
this secret formula.

Cheers!



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[Joerg Hoh]

Post by k***@mslinux.com
Go ahead. Since KDE is open source, any kid can come in and fork the
shiet out
of it and compete against you. Since Novell is no longer paying for SUSE
development, I'm suspecting many things in KDE development will be
slowed. Novell owner of SUSE has a very large percentage paid KDE
staffs, and when that
source is gone, you're left with smaller players to finance your
development. The only companies with a big interest now in KDE are
Trolltech, Linspire,
Corel, and Mindriva (a tenth). When Microsoft figures out the right
formula to
kill Trolltech, i.e. give out free Visual Studio to price dump on Trolltech,
Trolltech will no longer have a source of income to sustain itself and
die. One more financial supporter to KDE gone. The more financial
supporters to KDE
die, the less work KDE will get done and KDE will seesaw back to where E, OS/2
or BeOS is now.

So tell me, how can it be that linux is today a serious competitor against
Microsoft, Sun, IBM and some more? Linux wasn't founded with a lot of
money, it become a competitor without money, but with a lot of enthusiastic
developers. Yes, it's cool to have money and spend the whole day on working
for KDE.

Post by k***@mslinux.com
You have an opportunity now with Linus saying he uses KDE, and you should use
that to make the best out of the situation. Missing this opportunity
will have
an impair effect in making KDE more known. When you miss too many
opportunities, and all the financial players to KDE die off, KDE will
shrink to
zero. :)

Do you think, business will use KDE desktops when you advertise KDE with "even
Linus uses KDE"?

Post by k***@mslinux.com

Post by Kurt Pfeifle
Please start earning yourself a few initial KDE promo merits, if you
want to contribute to KDE's future success.

I'm not in the market for credibility, I'm in it for the money. The moment I
see KDE have some marketing momentum, I latch on it like a bulldog. Don't ask
what my interest in KDE is because I'm not telling you, I make money
for having
this secret formula.

Do we want to make money fast?

Jörg

[Kurt Pfeifle]

Post by k***@mslinux.com
I'm not in the market for credibility, I'm in it for the money.

That's perfectly OK for you.

Post by k***@mslinux.com
The moment I
see KDE have some marketing momentum, I latch on it like a bulldog. Don't ask
what my interest in KDE is because I'm not telling you,

That's you perfect right.

And you'll surely understand then that it is our right to not listen
to your advice and to not march at your commands then, right?

Post by k***@mslinux.com
I make money
for having
this secret formula.

Good luck then to you, even more than you had so far.

Post by k***@mslinux.com
Cheers!

Ciao,
Kurt

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[Cornelius Schumacher]

Post by k***@mslinux.com
Does it matter? If I make sense, and people understand what I'm
saying, and my
idea has momentum that's concrete and realized, then what I say without
my name
is more credible than your name with bad ideas.

Your idea doesn't have momentum and people here also seem not to understand
what you are saying. So please stop this. There are more important things to
do.

Post by k***@mslinux.com
Since Novell is no longer paying for SUSE
development, I'm suspecting many things in KDE development will be
slowed.

That's not true. Novell is still fully paying for SUSE development, including
their parts of KDE development.

Post by k***@mslinux.com
Novell owner of SUSE has a very large percentage paid KDE
staffs

That's also not true. The KDE developers paid by SUSE/Novell always have been
only a small percentage of all developers.

Post by k***@mslinux.com
You have an opportunity now with Linus saying he uses KDE, and you should
use that to make the best out of the situation.

This is no opportunity. Think about your Michael Jordan analogy. How many
millions do we have to pay superstars to do advertisement for KDE? Trying to
abuse Linus' emails to a mailing list for KDE promotion won't work. Worse, it
could backfire.

[Aaron J. Seigo]

Post by k***@mslinux.com
Since Novell is no longer paying for SUSE
development, I'm suspecting many things in KDE development will be
slowed. Novell owner of SUSE has a very large percentage paid KDE
staffs,

not particularly true, actually.

Post by k***@mslinux.com
and when that
source is gone, you're left with smaller players to finance your
development.

we've always had this problem. we've largely developed unfinanced, actually.
think about that for a moment.

if we wish to alter that situation, we need to get more people funded to
concentrate on KDE development than we've ever had before (e.g. more than
10). look at the KDAB situation where they hired several of the leading KDE
PIM people to work on the technology and they are now not doing that at all.
total bait and switch on the community. =(

anyways, changing the situation probably means deriving a business plan and
bringing in some capital. and it needs to be done in a way that doesn't turn
KDE into a product it isn't, that doesn't require muting the volunteer
efforts which will continue to dwarf the paid numbers and that actually gets
something of use done. we don't want to "monkey" around with kde; that path
leads to ruin.

Post by k***@mslinux.com
The only companies with a big interest now in KDE are
Trolltech, Linspire,
Corel, and Mindriva (a tenth).

which has been the status quo, really. suse was a small company before. and
there is still kde stuff happening around SUSE. but they aren't the linchpin
here. the linchpin are the volunteer devs; always have been.

Post by k***@mslinux.com
When Microsoft figures out the right
formula to
kill Trolltech, i.e. give out free Visual Studio to price dump on
Trolltech, Trolltech will no longer have a source of income to sustain
itself and die.

that's not why people by Trolltech products. they buy it because it's a damn
good API for a high quality toolkit with very broad coverage that is also
cross platform. so this particular scenario won't happen =)

Post by k***@mslinux.com
You have an opportunity now with Linus saying he uses KDE, and you should
use that to make the best out of the situation.

personally, i think we ought to leverage that relationship for the release of
KDE 4.0. imagine having linus on stage for a big release event? oh yeah. NOW
we're talking.

[George Staikos]

Post by k***@mslinux.com

Post by Torsten Rahn
Mentioning in the future that Linus is using KDE is a good thing. But
comparisons don't help here at all - rather the opposite: "There's no
contender out there that would be worth to be mentioned" / "Never ever
mention the competition" is the marketing rule that needs to be respected
in this case.

Where did you learn about "never ever mention the competition" in
marketing? There is this supersymmetry in marketing. Bad publicity is
also a good thing
because it brings in attention from those who have no idea what KDE is.
When the world only knows Windows and you talk shiet about Windows and
claim KDE is better and this and that. What do you think people who have
no idea of KDE would do? Do your homework in marketing.

I'm getting tired of repeating it, but let's try one more time:
We are aiming for the big pie, not the chunk of the 2-4% slice that we already
share. We are working -with- Gnome, not against them. Trying to take
advantage of this situation is wrong. This is a major issue we need to get
over. We discussed this with the Gnome folks recently and we all agreed that
this needs to stop on both sides. Please help us.

Post by k***@mslinux.com
There are many people on this mailing list that lacks marketing
education which
I find very alarming.

Using marketing to gain 1% and screw over the chances of gaining 95% in a
progressive manner is very alarming.

[Wade Olson]

Post by George Staikos
Using marketing to gain 1% and screw over the chances of gaining 95% in a
progressive manner is very alarming.

What? Do we have to rewrite everything now???

Kidding aside, can you only imagine the numbers of people getting
their first computer in the next decade in Asia, Eastern Europe and
South America? I say 'imagine' because I'm not sure how accurate any
current predictions are, besides 'alot'.

Combined with some turnover and upgrade cycles in more established
computing locales?

Remember that Microsoft built a strong community and network of ISVs
back when only a couple million people were using it. There's some
'escape velocity" (term I've used before) where a platform can't be
ignored and it becomes attractive to ISVs and VARs etc.

Regardless of other group's percentages in the future, KDE at worst is
poised to pick up several million new users in the next 5-10 years.
That's absurdly cool.

Internal-fighting and lack of interoperability already bit UNIX in the
ass over the last 20 years...does anyone really want to make the same
mistake again? Not learning from from your forefathers is for
Presidents, not programmers.

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[Kurt Pfeifle]

Post by Patrick Trettenbrein
In an interview

No.

It was on a public mailing list (*). And the moment he wrote it, he
was not aware it was public (he said).

(*) http://lists.osdl.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/thread.html#390

Please avoid fuelling the flames with silly statements. Try to steer
into a more sober debate: about what the Linux desktop (KDE for us) is
still missing, what hinders its more widescale adoption, what can be
done to overcome the hurdles, etc.

We should also focus on what common ground we have with Gnome, and what
common competition there is to take market share from. After all, more
than 800 million people use MS operating systems. And 5.000++ million
people do not yet use any computer at all!

Let Gnome be different where they want to be different -- we claim the
same right for KDE. But let's also cooperate and share where we both
benefit from it, and when it helps to win a bigger share of the 6.000
million user market for any Linux desktop in the near future.

Post by Patrick Trettenbrein
Linus Torvalds said, that he favours KDE over GNOME. GNOME
developers shouldn't demote users with hiding or simply not implementing
config options in his opinion. As we know that Linus loves Konqueror too
we've got a person with a weighty voice on our side! :)
http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/67320 (German)
If you want I can translate it and post it on the dot/here?

No need to.

As could be anticipated the moment the mail was out, such an opinionated
statement by a high-profile hacker is *bound* to be picked up in hundreds
of websites and blogs anyway.

It is already on many, many news sites -- osnews.com, LWN.net, pro-linux.de,
golem.de, linuxtoday.com, slashdot.org and what-have-you.

If publically stating anything, we (KDE users and lovers) should avoid
any cheap entry into the ongoing flamefest. Please!

Post by Patrick Trettenbrein
Patrick

Cheers,
Kurt

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[Birger Kollstrand]

Post by Kurt Pfeifle
If publically stating anything, we (KDE users and lovers) should avoid
any cheap entry into the ongoing flamefest. Please!

:-) , this must be one of the biggest flame baites ever put out into the Linux
comunity.

And if anyone want a bit of fun , read some of the incedible funny threads
around the world :-D

I belive young Mr.Torvalds has generated more traffick than spam today.

Birger
www.linær.no

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[Harald Sitter]

Post by Patrick Trettenbrein
In an interview Linus Torvalds said, that he favours KDE over GNOME. GNOME
developers shouldn't demote users with hiding or simply not implementing
config options in his opinion. As we know that Linus loves Konqueror too
we've got a person with a weighty voice on our side! :)
http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/67320 (German)
If you want I can translate it and post it on the dot/here?
Patrick

Well, Kurt already told the main points though I have to add that one doesn't
have to promote bad news (in this case bad for gnome). If they're
promoteworthy they'll promote their self by verbal propaganda etc.

And well, taking profit out of others loss reminds me on a big company which
tries to rule software user's life ;-)